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FORUM: Lucidity  |  Discussion Topics by Geography  |  China and Southeast Asia  |  What about China and Tibet?

Poll
Question: The 2008 Olympics--To boycott, or not to boycott
No boycott whatsoever - 3 (75%)
Boycott sponsors only - 0 (0%)
Boycott broadcast and sponsors - 1 (25%)
Push sponsors to boycott with you - 0 (0%)
Push countries to boycott with you - 0 (0%)
Push athletes to boycott with you (tough for them, I know) - 0 (0%)
Push all of them to boycott with you - 0 (0%)
Push everyone you can think of to boycott with you, and tell them all why at every opportunity! - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 4

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Author Topic: What about China and Tibet?  (Read 710 times)
The Facilitatrix
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« on: March 22, 2008, 08:26:09 PM »

Eric posted "Boy Oh Boy - Boycotting the Boycott" on February 29, and that spawned a good discussion about boycotts of countries, the criteria for boycotts, and the value of boycotts.

But I think the situation with China has taken a turn that can't be ignored.

From Toronto's Globe and Mail March 18:
Quote
BEIJING — Chinese officials have declared a "people's war" of security and propaganda against support for the Dalai Lama in Tibet after riots racked the regional capital Lhasa, and some sources claimed the turmoil killed dozens.

Residents of the remote city high in the Himalayas said on Sunday that anti-riot troops controlled the streets and were closely checking Tibetan homes after protests and looting shook the heavily Buddhist region.

Two days ago Tibetan protesters, some in Buddhist monks' robes and some yelling pro-independence slogans, trashed shops, attacked banks and government offices and wielded stones and knives against police. ...

The convulsion of Tibetan anger at the Chinese presence in the region came after days of peaceful protests by monks and was a sharp blow to Beijing's preparations for the Olympic Games in August, when China wants to showcase prosperity and unity.

The monks took to the streets on Monday to mark the 49th anniversary of an earlier uprising.

The protest later spread to Chinese areas inhabited by Tibetans. Xiahe in Gansu province saw hundreds of monks and lay residents march in peaceful defiance, to judge from pictures sent to reporters.

Chinese authorities have now signalled a sweeping campaign to redouble security in the region and attack public support for the Dalai Lama, who fled into exile in 1959 after that year's failed uprising.
http://www.theglobeandmai.../home?cid=al_gam_mostview

The Chinese retaliation against the Tibetans who staged these protests has been out of proportion to any threat from the protesters, in my opinion.  The protests, however, have been incredibly restrained when seen in perspective.  Again from The Globe and Mail, March 21:

Quote
More than 100 armed soldiers are camped out in military vehicles in the parking lot of the hotel where Luorang works. His town is locked down, its people trapped inside their homes, ordered to stay off the streets.

But when The Globe and Mail reaches him by telephone, the 35-year-old Tibetan ignores the nearby soldiers and agrees to talk. He is eager to explain why people in his community are angry enough to join the fiercest wave of Tibetan protests in almost 20 years.

His words tumble out. He talks of a sacred mountain, holy to the Tibetans, the site of a Tibetan festival, where Chinese mining companies are blasting for gold and silver mines. He talks of the disappearing forests and how there is nothing left for traditional Tibetan medicine. He describes how China prohibited his town from receiving a group of monks from Lhasa last year, and how the monks of his town were banned from travelling to other monasteries.

"If they take away the water and the soil and the resources, how will our people continue to live here?" he asks.

"If our people did not believe in Buddhism, they would have rioted a long time ago. We endured and endured. But now finally it is difficult to endure any more." ...

The scale of the uprising, and the violence on both sides, has shocked the world. But for those who were paying attention, the signs of revolt had been visible for months, if not years. ...

Thubten Samphel, a spokesman for the Dalai Lama's government-in-exile [said], "The Tibetan people have deep-seated resentments. They feel marginalized and isolated from economic development in Tibet. They feel that they're being reduced to a minority in their own land. They feel very fearful about the survival of their culture and their identity. These are the underlying roots, the sense of despair that they feel. The Olympics may have been a factor, but they were not the major factor." ... [my emphasis]

Many analysts say the current wave of protests can be traced back to two key events in 2006: the completion of the new railway to Lhasa, which has brought millions of Chinese tourists and migrants to Tibet, and the appointment of a tough new Communist regional boss, Zhang Qingli, who announced a "life or death" battle against the Dalai Lama.

Mr. Zhang is a member of China's ethnic Han majority, and in an interview in August of 2006, he admitted that he spoke "just a few words" of the Tibetan language. He regarded the Tibetans as children who must be indoctrinated with a love of China, rather than a love of Buddhism.

"Those who do not love their country are not qualified to be human beings," Mr. Zhang said in one interview. [my emphasis]

"The Communist Party is like the parent to the Tibetan people, and it is always considerate about what the children need," he said on another occasion. "The Central Party Committee is the real Buddha for Tibetans."

Under Mr. Zhang's hard-line rule, Tibetans were forced to endure a near-constant diet of mandatory "patriotic education" sessions, along with a host of other restrictive measures, including bans on religious activity by Tibetan students and officials. Arrests of Tibetan dissidents increased threefold in 2007, compared with the previous year. The crackdown was "extraordinarily vigorous" and triggered massive discontent in Tibet, said Prof. Barnett, the Columbia University scholar.

"There was a whittling down of the Tibetan culture," he said. "There was no security threat from Tibet, so why did China's policies need to turn so hard-line in the past two years? All of this really exacerbated the situation in Tibet."

The "patriotic education" campaigns, which forced monks to denounce the Dalai Lama and declare allegiance to China, had previously been held once or twice a year. But after Mr. Zhang's arrival, some monasteries began receiving education campaigns for up to 18 days a month. Some monks refused to sign formal statements denouncing the Dalai Lama, and one monk reportedly committed suicide rather than sign the statement.
http://www.theglobeandmai...ry/Front/?pageRequested=1

This is all bad stuff.  And the bad stuff goes back 58 years, as those Tibetans who survived Chinese imprisonment can attest.  There are also some "outsiders" who have seen what has happened to Tibet, and at least one believes that Tibetans do not expect to win back their country but are instead very aware that the results of these protests will be the same as they were in the past: death and imprisonment.

From Garbriel Lafitte, adviser to the Tibet Government-in-exile, on March 17:

Quote
The Tibetan revolt, like those of two and five decades ago, will be crushed by the overwhelming might of the Chinese military. No match could be more unequal: maroon-clad nuns and monks versus the machinery of oppression of the global rising power. In recent months, fast-response mobile tactical squads whose sole purpose is to quell the masses have been overtly rehearsing on the streets of Tibetan towns for just what they are now doing.

What is the point of revolt if it is almost certainly suicidal?

This uprising has many uniquely Tibetan characteristics. At street level, a favourite item seized from Chinese shops was toilet rolls - hardly the usual target of looters. Not that Tibetans, over millennia, have felt much need for the paper rolls, or even for the basics of the Chinese cuisine such as soy sauce. What the Tibetans did with the loo paper was to hurl it over power lines, instantly making Lhasa, and other Tibetan towns, Tibetan again. Right across the 25 per cent of China that is ethnically and culturally Tibetan, the unrolled toilet paper looks like wind horses, the white silken scarf khadags with which Tibetans greet and bless each other. As all Tibetans know, they carry their message on the wind: Victory to the gods!

That is what this revolt is about: making Tibet Tibetan once more. The white scarves also protected Tibetan shopkeepers from attack as the streets filled, for a short and costly moment of freedom, with Tibetans smashing the businesses of immigrant Chinese traders.

Even in the most intoxicating moment of reclaiming the streets no Tibetan could have forgotten the ever present security cameras, and the network of informers penetrating deeply into urban Tibetan private lives. No Tibetan could have been unmindful that the full repressive power of a modernised, high-tech tyranny would hunt them down, and show no mercy. All Tibetans know of former friends who, on release from prison and torture, now shun old acquaintances because they are under such intense pressure by their torturers to regularly name names of those who privately voice thoughts that do not conform to the Party line. These informers live in fear of being hauled in again, for further torture, and of betraying their friends. [my emphasis]

That is what makes this revolt uniquely Tibetan. It is no accident that from the outset the protests were led by those who have already renounced all ties to kin, dedicating their lives to serve all of humanity, unconditionally. The nuns and monks of Tibet have taken vows to work for the liberation of all sentient beings from all sources of suffering - in the mind and in the external world. From the Dalai Lama through to the newest novice, they train in meditation to cut attachment to existence, to the existence of me ahead of all others.

They know they will die, and are ready for it. Just as in the great Tibetan revolts of 1959 and 1987, many will die in secret prison cells, after torture. When the world is no longer watching, or able to see, Tibetans who risked all so as to focus the world - in this Olympic year - on China's shame, will die.

What do Tibetans find so objectionable about today's China? Why is it that Tibetans and Chinese, neighbours for thousands of years, cannot get on? ...

The latest threat to Tibetan ways of life comes wrapped in an ideology of environmentalism. In the name of protecting the Tibetan upper reaches of China's great rivers - both the Yangtze and the Yellow - thousands of Tibetan nomads are being forced off their land, and resettled in miserable new towns in the middle of nowhere. Instantly, their livelihoods and intimate knowledge of the land and sustainable management, are useless - but they are seldom given training in new skills or even compensation beyond a grain survival ration.

Now the nomads, in a huge and rapidly expanding area, are ecological refugees, on the mistaken assumption that they are ignorantly and carelessly to blame for degradation of a vast grassland second in size only to Australia's pastoral inland. The nomads, compulsorily voiceless, not allowed to form any NGOs of their own, have no opportunity to show how deeply they care for the land, having sustained its productivity and its wildlife over millennia. China's urban-based Party elite regards nomads as stupid, uneducated, unscientific, greedy and destructive - everything China is trying to get away from. There is no partnership between authority and those on the land, because they are of different races, with very different worldviews.

This is the bedrock of the revolt. The Chinese authorities hold rural Tibetans in contempt, while urban educated Tibetans are viewed with suspicion, their exclusive loyalty to China and the Party forever tested by extreme "patriotic education" campaigns that make it compulsory to denounce the most revered lamas.

To be a Tibetan in Tibet is a lot like being black in Mississippi 50 years ago. Travel within Tibet, migration from country to city, number of livestock permitted, number of children permitted, all are rigidly and oppressively controlled by an invasive bureaucracy. [my emphasis] ...

As the Dalai Lama has always said: Tibetans and Chinese have gotten on well in the past, and can do so again, but only if there is mutual respect for fellow human beings who differ in their sources of happiness.

Tibetan monks and nuns are now dying, usually with equanimity and no hatred, in order to maintain that difference.
http://newmatilda.com/200.../03/17/reclaiming-streets

My opinion is that only a coordinated boycott of the Olympics in China—if not of Chinese products—can have any effect at all, but not for the reason you might think I have. China has expelled the international press from Tibet, so any news we get now will have to be sneaked out.  But the news that the Chinese themselves get is restricted beyond Western comprehension.   

PRI's The World had a report on March 17 about how the Chinese in China view the situation in Tibet http://www.theworld.org/?...xonomy_by_date/1/20080317.  If they had heard about the protests and government response at all, they had only heard the Chinese government's official line.  One woman, when asked about the protests, didn't understand what Tibet had to be unhappy about.  After all, the Chinese government "has been supporting them a lot. And especially about the development in the west. I think in the future Tibet will be more developed and I think they will be happier; their life will be better." It will be better than now, because she's heard that Tibetans are "really poor."  She said that Tibetans don't wash themselves, except for once before they get married.

Mary Kay Magistad, the reporter for the story, told the woman interviewed that Tibetans wanted "greater independence to protect their culture and religion," she responded that every country, ethnicity, and individual wants independence, but that it is better for Tibet to be part of China, because Tibet is in China's territory. It's better for Tibet's development.

Magistad said that this is a fairly typical opinion about Tibet, because this is what they're taught in school and what they hear from their government on the state-run media*.  The news that day had only a short report about Tibet at the end of the broadcast, and that was to say that everything was returning to normal there. 

Most people Magistad approached hadn't even heard about the events in Tibet, but one man, a bicycle repairman, had heard and had an opinion about it, which he related.  China, he said, is a very stable country in which only a few people "want to make a fuss. And it is the Dalai Lama who is playing the tricks in Tibet. And some other countries are trying to make it worse.  So that's why there's been chaos in Tibet. That's the right perspective."

And that's exactly what the Chinese government has told its citizens: that the Dalai Lama is trying to split the country and the Chinese forces used "maximum restraint." When Magistad tells the repairman that, by the government's account, 16 people have died and other sources report many more, he is genuinely surprised.  He admits that he hasn't heard this on the government's news broadcasts, but he is sure that the government will take care of the situation "fairly enough."  Magistad ends her report by noting that the confident tone the repairman used just moments before has been replaced with some doubt.

The Chinese news service isn't suddenly going to present unvarnished facts to its citizenry. Nor can Mary Kay Magistad (whose safety I started to worry about, after this report) interview enough of the billions of Chinese people to make a dent in their credulity.

However, an Olympic boycott—which couldn't be hidden from those millions of Chinese people enlisted to run the games' infrastructure—would start enough people asking questions that even the Chinese government might have trouble with it.  There's only so far that propaganda can go.

I suppose I'm trying to shove China into the light and make its people see it for what it actually is, not for what it says it is.  We lived in our relative ignorance until Watergate shoved reality into our faces, and while it hasn't been a steady voyage to open government, a vigilant press, and an aware populace, I think—ugly as things are—it's better than ignorance.

A resurgence of protest in Tibet and a 2008 Olympics boycott provide the perfect opportunities to wake Chinese people up.  They are two self-contained entities, difficult to rationalize once out in the open. Maybe the citizenry of other countries—including the US—will wake up at the same time. 


*If you've never listened to a Chinese news broadcast, try and listen to one soon. The World Radio Network http://www.wrn.org/ is broadcast on my local NPR station late at night.  I've listened with some amusement at the reports on Chinese events and culture that portray life in China and its relations with the rest of the world as upbeat and cooperative.  It always reminds me of the throwaway news report just before the "Every Sperm Is Sacred" number in The Meaning of Life: "This is the BBC home service. Here is the  news:  The British invasion of Russia ended quietly yesterday with the unconditional surrender of Moscow to Lieutenant Simon Pring. In Düsseldorf, the British pair Nanet and Napoleon  Hardcastle have won everything they possibly could have entered for.  And British weather has been named by Climate Magazine as the best in the world."
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 08:29:22 PM by The Facilitatrix » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 11:56:11 AM »

Instead of quoting, I'm just going to give my general response here, based on my own thinking and no quotations:

First of all, I'm glad you posted on this topic.  (And I'm sorry I missed the thread on boycotts, since there may be important info there that I should have incorporated here.  I may go back and look that up.  Or not.  Apologies for being out of the loop of late.)

It always bothered me that China had taken over Tibet.  And I have enormous respect for Tibet, Tibetans, and the Dalai Lama.  Naturally these demonstrations  and particularly the violent repression of demonstrators has been very disturbing to me.  (It reminds me of the marches and repression in Burma recently.)  Violence of any type is pretty upsetting to me.  Wars included.  At the same time, in spite of the news reports, I must admit I have also wondered if the Chinese are behind the violence of the "demonstrators."  So I've wondered if they could have placed "confederates" among the demonstrators, who provoked or instigated violence... and that China then used that in two ways.  To arrest demonstrators, who may have been largely peaceful.  And to blame the Dalai Lama for the violence.  (Seems so Rovian to me... and the Chinese watch us closely...)

I must admit that in spite of the many options offered on the poll, I did not take the poll.  Or at least not yet.

Here's my thinking about a boycott.  I have no difficulty refraining from buying something when it's a corporation and you're trying to influence them somehow.  And that only affects me - in addition to the corporation.

My thinking with regard to the Olympics.  And I must thank you, Facilitatrix, for goading me to do this, because it only came to me as a consequence of reading your post.  (And by the way I love your ability to research and organize and of course write beautifully!)  So, this boycott or whatever the response might be is, to me, an ethical dilemma.  And casting it in that vein is helpful to me in order to consider solutions.

It seems to me that a boycott of the games, and urging such a boycott, affects more than the Chinese and the people who refrain from attending.  It affects the whole world.  And in particular it affects young athletes, who have been training for this their whole lives.  That, to me, plays into the mix in a big way. 

Now, I would not personally attend the Olympics in China anyway, but that is due to environmental concerns.  But that being said, many other people have likely planned to attend.  Spectators.  Parents or relatives or friends of athletes.  They may have already purchased tickets or whatever. 

The idea that came to me is this one:  What if, instead of boycotting the games altogether - in whatever form - we were to urge everyone who attends to visit Tibet... to visit precisely the provinces that are right now affected.  To say that they intend to support the games, provided they are allowed to visit Tibet first!  I say first, because that's the only way to really accomplish the intended result.

If making Tibet an issue is the point, then the more people who visit there the better.  And if the games will be boycotted unless people can visit Tibet, then you've ensured that athletes can have their chance to compete and that China is faced with some kind of carrot and stick situation. 

Versus if everybody stays away, then that prevents forces Tibet off the radar screen and inconveniences many, many people who have had no role in repressing the Tibetans.

This is off the top of my head.  So I'd be interested in your thoughts, Facilitatrix, as well as the thoughts of others.  I'll also mull over how to take your poll.  And thanks again for sparking this question and discussion.
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Eric Stepp
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 12:19:41 PM »

Facilitatrix, I'm very interested in reading and concentrating on this post. I've printed it out, and will offer a deeper response in the next day or so.

I'd like to offer this, though: We don't know exactly what's going on in Tibet.

Really.

No clue.

Western media is banned (at least, it was), Chinese officials are offering little information (which is not nefarious in and of itself, China tends to keep a low media profile regardless), and we keep getting conflicting information from various news sources.

For me, at this point, it's more about understanding what really happened. Just as with Burma and multiple reports of military coup, or with Cuba and the speculations about Fidel Castro's death after his surgery in 2006, it's very difficult to tell what's real and what's speculation. Not necessarily because of disinformation from said country, but because Western media has been so shut out from China and other "oppressive" countries that we have a hard time believing anything that comes out of official sources.

So, we're left to speculation.

This isn't meant to sugar coat the Tibetan situation, or to give China a free pass. I consider myself mostly "American Buddhist", am a strong (strong!) follower of His Holiness The Dalai Lama, and feel that the Chinese takeover of Tibet in the 50's was one of the lowest points in China's history.
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The Facilitatrix
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 12:26:35 PM »

Hmm.  Making the trip to Tibet as well as the Olympics is an intriguing proposal.

But I don't know if doing that would register in the way I want it to with the Chinese people.  Even this morning I heard Pico Iyer interviewed on Fresh Air, and he spoke about how making even one Chinese person aware of the truth about Tibet would be valuable.

As Americans, we know full well that it takes concerned people to make change occur.  Ralph Nader didn't make cars safer; the people who learned about unsafe cars pushed for safety standards, and the government and manufacturers conceded.

But I get the impression that the combination of a booming economy that occupies the Chinese in new ways, the paternalism that accustoms them to accept what they hear from their government as true, and a secretive government that wishes no one in the world knew what they were actually doing are insurmountable impediments—unless something triggers some doubt and concern.

That's why I thought that it would be unavoidable for the Chinese people to notice an Olympics boycott and take that step to wonder aloud, "Why?"

I know the disappointment for the athletes and those who support them would be huge.  I just thought that it would be worth the sacrifice if the result was awareness that couldn't come any other way.
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 01:05:08 PM »

I'm afraid nothing makes an impression on the Chinese.  Their economy is growing, the people are under complete control and there is NO independent media. 

I think Carter's boycott of the Olympics did little to influence the Soviet Union and I'm pretty sure China would continue their course with our without our attendance.

I wish things were different there and here but it is what it is for now. 
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 01:27:25 PM »

I'm afraid nothing makes an impression on the Chinese.  Their economy is growing, the people are under complete control and there is NO independent media. 

I think Carter's boycott of the Olympics did little to influence the Soviet Union and I'm pretty sure China would continue their course with our without our attendance.

I wish things were different there and here but it is what it is for now. 

Chuck, don't give up on the Chinese just yet.

They were influenced to take stronger stands with North Korea, and recently Myanmar. They've also started taking a more critical stance on Sudan. So many liberal and progressive Americans want our government to be more tactful, use diplomacy, and remove military and economic threats from our foreign policy. Yet this is exactly what China is doing to an extreme (laissez faire diplomacy, I suppose)

In my opinion, as I've written elsewhere, a boycott for the games (or against the sponsors, or against China in general) will not get very far. Diplomatic dialogue (which the Chinese take seriously), economic stability (inflation and resource costs are going crazy), and acknowledgment that China is moving away from "developing" status (Chinese officials are very proud and concerned with their world standing), will do more good as positive effects than boycotting will do with negative effects.
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 01:32:42 PM »

I'm afraid nothing makes an impression on the Chinese.  Their economy is growing, the people are under complete control and there is NO independent media. 

I think Carter's boycott of the Olympics did little to influence the Soviet Union and I'm pretty sure China would continue their course with our without our attendance.

I wish things were different there and here but it is what it is for now. 

I agree. Official China's position is that they are going to be treated as a Great Power, by their definition, and will not bow to pressure. While I don't like the way that the Olympics have become a media and endorsement show, I still believe there is some benefit to them, for international cooperation.  Two boycotts so far had little effect on the country being boycotted, other than on athletes.

It seems very unlikely that anyone is going to change China's behavior toward Tibet. Sadly, international relations have to face what physicians face too often: the patient is going to die.  Tibet is going to suffer in any future I can see.
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 02:47:20 PM »

The Olympics date from the eighth century BC.  China was already an old civilization yet still young enough that it would be two hundred years before it produced its greatest mind, Con Fu Tzu (Confucius).   So the Chinese may be forgiven if they expect to be treated as a mature civilization.

On my wall I have a four foot high rubbing from a tombstone in the cemetery where a number of Confucius’ relatives are buried.  It is so old that no one can translate the characters etched on the stone.  In that same town is an apothecary where you can shop for traditional herbs.  It was open for business when Confucius was alive.  

There are many reasons these days for Americans to be circumspect about themselves and their relationship to the world.  Perhaps meditations on China would be instructive.
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The Facilitatrix
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 03:14:28 PM »

Quote
I'm afraid nothing makes an impression on the Chinese.  Their economy is growing, the people are under complete control and there is NO independent media.

I think Carter's boycott of the Olympics did little to influence the Soviet Union and I'm pretty sure China would continue their course with our without our attendance.

Which is exactly why I'm looking for a method of reaching those people (no, not me personally).  It can't happen from without, so it has to come from within somehow.

Quote
It seems very unlikely that anyone is going to change China's behavior toward Tibet. Sadly, international relations have to face what physicians face too often: the patient is going to die.  Tibet is going to suffer in any future I can see.

Again, this is only looking at China as its government, not as its people.  The people, as far as they've been told, believe that every influence China has had on Tibet has been good.  They do not know that Tibetans have died at the hands of Chinese forces.  They don't know how differently the Tibetans are treated from the Chinese who have moved there since 1959.

Quote
The Olympics date from the eighth century BC.  China was already an old civilization yet still young enough that it would be two hundred years before it produced its greatest mind, Con Fu Tzu (Confucius).   So the Chinese may be forgiven if they expect to be treated as a mature civilization.

It's the very civilized heritage of the Chinese that needs to be tapped.  If they had the chance to think about it, I don't think that the Chinese people would like to know that they are sitting by why another ancient culture was losing its identity.

We may not know all of the details about what's happening in Tibet, but journalists and others have managed to get in there and get the cries for help out.  It's only been a few days since the last Canadian journalist was ousted.  No matter what we know, however, the Chinese people know much, much less.  They only know what a government (younger than ours)—not a mature civilization—wants them to know.
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 06:20:07 PM »

Facilitatrix:

I now realize that your point is to influence the Chinese population.  But really it is their government that is engaged in suppressing Tibetan culture etc.  So then the question becomes, in my mind, how Orientals might view such an affront.  My guess is that they are not in a position to independently verify things even to the degree we can try to do that.  So then what might be the effect?  It could backfire, it would seem to me, at least potentially.  Especially if the people are the ones you would hope to reach. 

People were trying to reach us with 9/11.  An event or an event staged as a series of behaviors, which is what a boycott, is only as effective as your ability to wrap the event in the intended "language" or "meaning."  It's like if I hop up and down.  If you have no idea what that is supposed to mean, then the behavior is interpreted by people as "they" choose, not as I choose.  That was the problem of 9/11.  The terrorists pulled off a huge event.  But the meaning of their message was not clear.  And ultimately the bush regime interpreted 9/11, using it to their own ends.  The Chinese government could do the same thing.

Words are always better than actions, at least if you want your point to be understood clearly.  Unless the meaning of the action is clear.  And across cultures that meaning may differ. 

Thus, I'm not sure a boycott would have your intended result, Facilitatrix, even if we truly knew exactly what was happening in Tibet. 

Eric, I'm wondering how a Buddhist, particularly a Tibetan Buddhist might view something like a boycott.  Or might view this type of boycott.  (maybe that is in your post on the other thread, which I still have not had time to read... but I will)

These kinds of discussions are fascinating.  And sadly, exactly what is now impossible at the Cafe.

Thank you for generating this interesting discussion, Facilitatrix! 
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2008, 01:36:39 PM »

I am happy to report, Facilitatrix, that Angela Merkel will not be attending the opening ceremony of the Olympics because of China's crackdown on Tibetan demonstrators:

http://www.guardian.co.uk.../germany.olympicgames2008
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 04:44:44 PM »

Facilitatrix:

I now realize that your point is to influence the Chinese population.  But really it is their government that is engaged in suppressing Tibetan culture etc.  So then the question becomes, in my mind, how Orientals might view such an affront.  My guess is that they are not in a position to independently verify things even to the degree we can try to do that.  So then what might be the effect?  It could backfire, it would seem to me, at least potentially.  Especially if the people are the ones you would hope to reach. 

...
 

We have had major protests and disruptions of the torch relay in London and Paris. The Paris relay had to be cut short, and the torch driven by bus to the finishing stage for Paris. A wheelchair-bound torch-bearer was accosted by protesters, and riot police were called in.

This, in my opinion, is what calls for boycotts will degenerate into in a post-Seattle-WTO world.

TheraP, we are seeing the unintended consequences of this mixing of international sports and politics. Major media around the world are reacting very damningly to the protests. And, as expected, the protests are backfiring.

Read South China Morning Post, or China Post (Taiwan), or any number of Chinese-based papers and sites. Read the user comments on BBC.co.uk in the "Have Your Say Section". Chinese citizens are angry, and are starting to vocalize strong anti-Western sentiments.

Is this the hoped-for result?

Forget the point that Chinese urbanites are rather well educated in world affairs. Forget that they can access BBC.co unfiltered, and that the BBC airs (as I remember) unfiltered. Forget the underground internet cafes that have managed to side-step the official censors.

Let's assume that the Chinese populace is, as a matter of assumption, naive brainwashed uninformed masses that only get their news from CCTV. How else would the Chinese government spin the protests and disruption of a peaceful torch relay, in Paris? How else would the average Chinese citizen, seeing the Western protesters struggle with police and the relay team, take in the situation?

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Eric, I'm wondering how a Buddhist, particularly a Tibetan Buddhist might view something like a boycott.  Or might view this type of boycott.  (maybe that is in your post on the other thread, which I still have not had time to read... but I will)
 

I can't really speak for Tibetan Buddhism, or any of the other paths (American Buddhism is more philosophical than spiritual). My interpretation is that boycotts are political and economic, and Buddhism focuses on the spiritual aspect of the individual. Adherents aren't prohibited from participating in a boycott, just that it can't interfere with the 4 Noble Truths or the 8-Fold Path. I believe this is why The Dalai Lama does not talk separation of Tibet from China, but rather the autonomy and religious freedom for Tibetans to practice Buddhism without Communist Government crackdowns.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 05:24:07 PM by Eric Stepp » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 06:46:15 PM »

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Forget the point that Chinese urbanites are rather well educated in world affairs. Forget that they can access BBC.co unfiltered, and that the BBC airs (as I remember) unfiltered. Forget the underground internet cafes that have managed to side-step the official censors.

Maybe they can, but do they?  The people The World interviewed included businesspeople and professionals, as well as the bicycle repairman.  The businesspeople didn't care.  The professionals didn't even know all of what the Chinese news was reporting.

And if the Chinese people are angry, can that be because of how the protests are being presented by the government news, especially if it's spun as being orchestrated by the Dalai Lama, as China has been telling them?

I know there's the possibility and even likelihood of a boycott's backfiring.  But I posited that the important part of the boycott would be there, in Beijing, on the ground where it would affect the Chinese people most directly.  I would agree with a Chinese population that is somewhat naive, but only because of gaps in what they've been given to learn.  I think it would be too much to convince those Chinese workers who find themselves with much less to do (and earn), because a boycott led to poor attendance, that the Dalai Lama and Tibetans have the power to orchestrate that.

I haven't lived in China, and I am forever grateful that I was born with a personality that doesn't let me accept something's true simply because an authority has told me it is—a trait I realize is fairly unusual.  If this makes me think that consciousness can dawn this way, then I guess I'm the one who is naive.
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